PDA

View Full Version : Years later...still no unseating MS Office



GofBorg
01-Jul-2013, 20:50
Just thought I'd share. I work on home PC's on the side and from time to
time I tweak an older system to make it still viable for someone. Since
these are basic machines that usually came with some obsolete version of
Windows and no office suite licenses, and seeing how nobody seems to want
machines with Linux on it, I normally get it going and then stick Libre/Open
Office on it.

I have to say that without exception if I ever see the machine again it will
always have MS Office installed on it by the time it returns. What is the
mental block that people can't get their head around to using these
programs? I don't get it. It's not like these are 'power users' using these
machines, in fact, I'm surprised half of them know how to use Word. I guess
if they want to run out and spend the money that's their business, I just
think it's weird.

Bob
01-Jul-2013, 21:27
I think there's an old adage around concerning "old shoes". I
experience exactly what you describe with the one exception that if the
person knows me really well they'll give Libre a try. Some install a
mental hurdle so high that they find it impossible to get over the
"differences". However, I have some that actually make Libre their new
comfortable old shoe.

Lemmings are a strange breed.

Bob

On 7/1/2013 3:50 PM, GofBorg wrote:
> Just thought I'd share. I work on home PC's on the side and from time to
> time I tweak an older system to make it still viable for someone. Since
> these are basic machines that usually came with some obsolete version of
> Windows and no office suite licenses, and seeing how nobody seems to want
> machines with Linux on it, I normally get it going and then stick Libre/Open
> Office on it.
>
> I have to say that without exception if I ever see the machine again it will
> always have MS Office installed on it by the time it returns. What is the
> mental block that people can't get their head around to using these
> programs? I don't get it. It's not like these are 'power users' using these
> machines, in fact, I'm surprised half of them know how to use Word. I guess
> if they want to run out and spend the money that's their business, I just
> think it's weird.
>
>
>

kgroneman
01-Jul-2013, 21:49
Hey GofBorg,

>hat is the
>mental block that people can't get their head around to using these
>programs? I don't get it. It's not like these are 'power users' using
>these machines,

My guess it's because they're *not* power users. They hear people
talking about "word" documents or "excel" spreadsheets and look at
their PC and see this foreign "Libre Office" stuff and rationalize
that's not what they need. It doesn't save in the right format! For
such folks it would take someone sitting down with them and showing
them how to deal with MS Office files in Libre Office before they would
be comfortable using it. After all, all their friends use MS Office
and that's what they used in college. It's familiar. It's comfortable.


--
Kim - 7/1/2013 2:46:28 PM

GofBorg
01-Jul-2013, 22:31
> My guess it's because they're *not* power users. They hear people
> talking about "word" documents or "excel" spreadsheets and look at
> their PC and see this foreign "Libre Office" stuff and rationalize
> that's not what they need. It doesn't save in the right format!

I would say this would be a cause except I tweak each installation so
that there is no issue with opening documents. All the file associations
are correct, the open save dialogs are correct. I've gone into Writer
and made the toolbars and page layouts look correct. Nada, bubkus.
Still comes back with Word on it.

KBOYLE
01-Jul-2013, 22:53
GofBorg wrote:

> I guess
> if they want to run out and spend the money that's their business, I
> just think it's weird.

I couldn't agree more but having just had this discussion with a
customer, I can see some of their reasoning:

Case 1.
A customer has to send some data to a third party. That third party
requested an Excel spreadsheet. The employee didn't have Excel and
requested it be installed even though LibreOffice was already installed.

I was told to install Microsoft Office but didn't. Instead, I explained
that one does not need Excel to create an "Excel" spreadsheet. They
tried with LibreOffice and it did just fine.

Case 2.
LibreOffice can open most .doc and .xls files and see the content as
you would in Microsoft Office. There are, however, a few compatibility
issues with .docx and .xlsx files.

Since current versions of Microsoft Office by default use the extended
format (.docx, .xlsx), most third parties send their Microsoft Office
documents in those formats. Rather than requesting the file be sent in
a different (compatible) format, my customer's staff try to use that as
an argument to justify (sometimes successfully) why they should use
Microsoft Office instead.

Just as an aside, most of the files sent externally should be in PDF
format and even though they have that capability they would never think
of actually using it.

It seems that some days I just can't win!

--
Kevin Boyle - Knowledge Partner
If you find this post helpful and are logged into the web interface,
show your appreciation and click on the star below...

KeN Etter
02-Jul-2013, 14:24
On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 19:50:49 GMT, GofBorg
<GofBorg@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote:

>Just thought I'd share. I work on home PC's on the side and from time to
>time I tweak an older system to make it still viable for someone. Since
>these are basic machines that usually came with some obsolete version of
>Windows and no office suite licenses, and seeing how nobody seems to want
>machines with Linux on it, I normally get it going and then stick Libre/Open
>Office on it.
>
>I have to say that without exception if I ever see the machine again it will
>always have MS Office installed on it by the time it returns. What is the
>mental block that people can't get their head around to using these
>programs? I don't get it. It's not like these are 'power users' using these
>machines, in fact, I'm surprised half of them know how to use Word. I guess
>if they want to run out and spend the money that's their business, I just
>think it's weird.

We ran MS Office 97 for years. We tried OpenOffice here a while back
looking for a cost effective upgrade from MS Office 97. It failed
because OpenOffice was not compatible enough with MS Office. All of
our clients use MS Office. We don't want to ask clients to do
something special to work with us, so we weren't going to ask them to
save to specific formats so that we could open their files. But when
we tried to open their files in OpenOffice things were missing or
garbled. A couple of embarrassing incidents and it was a fairly easy
decision. We purchased MS Office 2010. We'll probably stick with
that version for quite some time.

Ken

kgroneman
02-Jul-2013, 18:21
Have you ever had to use LibreOffice to send a complicated spreadsheet
to someone in Office format? Have you ever had to send a graphical
presentation you've created in LibreOffice to someone that only has MS
Office? I have...many times....which is why I have both LibreOffice
and MS Office on my system now. There are too many incompatibilities
to make a perfect handoff. A spreadsheet that won't calculate right. A
presentation that is badly formatted. LibreOffice also has a lot of
spreadsheet bugs I'm constantly running into with large spreadsheets.
I still use and recommend LibreOffice, but I can definitely see why
someone would want to use MS Office instead, especially if they have to
exchange files with someone that only uses MS Office.

--
Kim - 7/2/2013 11:17:13 AM

kgroneman
02-Jul-2013, 18:23
Hey KeN Etter,

>But when
>we tried to open their files in OpenOffice things were missing or
>garbled.

Bingo. The reverse of that is also the case....create something in
Libre/OpenOffice and it often doesn't display or work right in MS
Office.

--
Kim - 7/2/2013 11:22:05 AM

Jim Henderson
02-Jul-2013, 18:38
On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 20:49:54 +0000, kgroneman wrote:

> It's familiar. It's comfortable.

Except it isn't familiar any more. I've been using Office 2013 for a
project, and it's very different from earlier versions.

Jim

--
Jim Henderson, CNA6, CDE, CNI, LPIC-1, CLA10, CLP10
Novell/SUSE/NetIQ Knowledge Partner

GofBorg
02-Jul-2013, 19:04
> Have you ever had to use LibreOffice to send a complicated spreadsheet
> to someone in Office format? Have you ever had to send a graphical
> presentation you've created in LibreOffice to someone that only has MS
> Office?

You're missing the issue. These are home users without fancy needs that
barely know how to set bold print or use center justification.

kgroneman
02-Jul-2013, 19:37
Hey GofBorg,

>These are home users without fancy needs that
>barely know how to set bold print or use center justification

Oh..in that case it's probably because they have money to burn and it
seems like a good way to get rid of some.

--
Kim - 7/2/2013 12:37:20 PM

kgroneman
02-Jul-2013, 19:38
Hey Jim Henderson,

>I've been using Office 2013 for a
>project, and it's very different from earlier versions.

I've got 2010 installed. I use LibreOffice for day to day work so
using the MS stuff is difficult and time consuming when I need to
because I'm not used to it.

--
Kim - 7/2/2013 12:38:00 PM

Bob
02-Jul-2013, 20:46
On 7/2/2013 1:23 PM, kgroneman wrote:
> Hey KeN Etter,
>
>> But when
>> we tried to open their files in OpenOffice things were missing or
>> garbled.
>
> Bingo. The reverse of that is also the case....create something in
> Libre/OpenOffice and it often doesn't display or work right in MS
> Office.
>
I would love to know of a good process that moves the world from a
proprietary de facto "standard" to an open non-proprietary standard.

Bob

Scott Campbell
02-Jul-2013, 21:01
kgroneman wrote:

> Oh..in that case it's probably because they have money to burn and it
> seems like a good way to get rid of some.

If the company they work for offers the home use program which is free
with SA then Office is only $10...

Jim Henderson
03-Jul-2013, 02:23
On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 18:38:57 +0000, kgroneman wrote:

> Hey Jim Henderson,
>
>>I've been using Office 2013 for a project, and it's very different from
>>earlier versions.
>
> I've got 2010 installed. I use LibreOffice for day to day work so using
> the MS stuff is difficult and time consuming when I need to because I'm
> not used to it.

Yep, same here. I had to do some work in Office 2013 yesterday (in Word)
and it took a few minutes to find the formatting options I needed.
Could've done it blindfolded in LibreOffice.

I also have had PowerPoint presentations that I've had to deal with that
LibreOffice sadly wouldn't handle well at all.

It's gotten better, but compatibility still isn't perfect, and if you
need it, there's not a lot of getting around it. The MS office formats
aren't well documented, even MS has problems with compatibility between
versions.

Jim
--
Jim Henderson, CNA6, CDE, CNI, LPIC-1, CLA10, CLP10
Novell/SUSE/NetIQ Knowledge Partner

Jim Henderson
03-Jul-2013, 02:23
On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 19:46:47 +0000, Bob wrote:

> On 7/2/2013 1:23 PM, kgroneman wrote:
>> Hey KeN Etter,
>>
>>> But when we tried to open their files in OpenOffice things were
>>> missing or garbled.
>>
>> Bingo. The reverse of that is also the case....create something in
>> Libre/OpenOffice and it often doesn't display or work right in MS
>> Office.
>>
> I would love to know of a good process that moves the world from a
> proprietary de facto "standard" to an open non-proprietary standard.

"Critical mass"

Jim



--
Jim Henderson, CNA6, CDE, CNI, LPIC-1, CLA10, CLP10
Novell/SUSE/NetIQ Knowledge Partner

Dave Taylor
03-Jul-2013, 09:04
Jim Henderson <hendersj@no-mx.forums.novell.com> wrote in news:D2LAt.696
$t31.691@kozak.provo.novell.com:

>> I would love to know of a good process that moves the world from a
>> proprietary de facto "standard" to an open non-proprietary standard.
>
> "Critical mass"

ISO/IEC 26300:2006/Amd 1:2012 - Open Document Format for Office
Applications (OpenDocument) v1.1


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument

This tool might help the move:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=LART


I guess we just all need to work together to make critical mass.

kgroneman
03-Jul-2013, 14:55
Hey Jim Henderson,

>I also have had PowerPoint presentations that I've had to deal with
>that LibreOffice sadly wouldn't handle well at all.

That's where I see the biggest incompatibility.

--
Kim - 7/3/2013 7:54:29 AM

Jim Henderson
03-Jul-2013, 22:37
On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 13:55:05 +0000, kgroneman wrote:

> Hey Jim Henderson,
>
>>I also have had PowerPoint presentations that I've had to deal with that
>>LibreOffice sadly wouldn't handle well at all.
>
> That's where I see the biggest incompatibility.

Oddly, I didn't until I received a bunch of presentations for a project
about a year ago. Then it was just little things - text in slightly the
wrong location (so it was obscured by the graphics on the slide), word
wrapping that was different - just little things. But they added up
quickly.

And I ended up having to re-shoot screencaps of everything as a result.

Jim

--
Jim Henderson, CNA6, CDE, CNI, LPIC-1, CLA10, CLP10
Novell/SUSE/NetIQ Knowledge Partner

Jim Henderson
03-Jul-2013, 22:39
On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 08:04:26 +0000, Dave Taylor wrote:

> I guess we just all need to work together to make critical mass.

What I mean by "critical mass" is that there needs to be a critical mass
of users using the open formats. Having the open formats isn't of any
use if people aren't using them.

That's one of the reasons I use LibreOffice whenever I can, even if I
have to save as MS Office documents. If the formatting gets messed up
going to MS Office (which seems less of a problem at least for Word
docs), then I mention that I used LibreOffice instead, and can generate a
PDF for them or can import into Word and clean it up.

Jim
--
Jim Henderson, CNA6, CDE, CNI, LPIC-1, CLA10, CLP10
Novell/SUSE/NetIQ Knowledge Partner

Dave Taylor
04-Jul-2013, 13:04
Jim Henderson <hendersj@no-mx.forums.novell.com> wrote in
news:_R0Bt.774$t31.343@kozak.provo.novell.com:

> On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 08:04:26 +0000, Dave Taylor wrote:
>
>> I guess we just all need to work together to make critical mass.
>
> What I mean by "critical mass" is that there needs to be a critical
> mass of users using the open formats. Having the open formats isn't
> of any use if people aren't using them.

Agreed

>
> That's one of the reasons I use LibreOffice whenever I can, even if I
> have to save as MS Office documents.

I use it at home

If the formatting gets messed up
> going to MS Office (which seems less of a problem at least for Word
> docs), then I mention that I used LibreOffice instead, and can
> generate a PDF for them or can import into Word and clean it up.
>
> Jim
My office is very MS. Sharepoint, Project, Exchange. Lync was pushed out
last month... Ironicaly, they go gung ho on the software, but much of the
hardware we run it on is getting a bit old.

lhaig
07-Jul-2013, 18:10
On 01/07/2013 21:50, GofBorg wrote:
> Just thought I'd share. I work on home PC's on the side and from time to
> time I tweak an older system to make it still viable for someone. Since
> these are basic machines that usually came with some obsolete version of
> Windows and no office suite licenses, and seeing how nobody seems to want
> machines with Linux on it, I normally get it going and then stick Libre/Open
> Office on it.
>
> I have to say that without exception if I ever see the machine again it will
> always have MS Office installed on it by the time it returns. What is the
> mental block that people can't get their head around to using these
> programs? I don't get it. It's not like these are 'power users' using these
> machines, in fact, I'm surprised half of them know how to use Word. I guess
> if they want to run out and spend the money that's their business, I just
> think it's weird.
>
>
>


I use LibreOffice every day working with customers and working with
co-workers.

The only problem I have is that we only now have the ability to open
visio documents in Libre.

I renamed my LIbreOffice Write and Calc to word and excel on my Mom's
machine and she still uses "Word" and "Excel".

Lance

Dave Taylor
08-Jul-2013, 09:54
Lance Haig <lhaig@haigmail.com> wrote in news:fihCt.867$t31.702
@kozak.provo.novell.com:

> I renamed my LIbreOffice Write and Calc to word and excel on my Mom's
> machine and she still uses "Word" and "Excel".
>

OOOOOOO, awesome. I really like this idea for non power users. :)

GofBorg
09-Jul-2013, 17:05
>> I renamed my LIbreOffice Write and Calc to word and excel on my Mom's
>> machine and she still uses "Word" and "Excel".
>>
>
> OOOOOOO, awesome. I really like this idea for non power users. :)

Yep. I've done that as well. Problems arise when a 'knowledgeable' person
comes in and says, "That ain't Word!".

GofBorg
09-Jul-2013, 17:09
> If the company they work for offers the home use program which is free
> with SA then Office is only $10...

Most installations tend to be Student editions.
So i'm assuming it might be partly kid driven.
The kid is used to Word/Excel so that's what they
end up with.

Dave Taylor
11-Jul-2013, 11:34
GofBorg <GofBorg@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote in news:WwWCt.1010
$t31.652@kozak.provo.novell.com:

>
> Yep. I've done that as well. Problems arise when a 'knowledgeable' person
> comes in and says, "That ain't Word!".
>

Those people get added to the beta tester pool for patch release candidates
:)

Dave Taylor
11-Jul-2013, 11:48
GofBorg <GofBorg@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote in news:oBWCt.1011
$t31.395@kozak.provo.novell.com:

> Most installations tend to be Student editions.
> So i'm assuming it might be partly kid driven.
> The kid is used to Word/Excel so that's what they
> end up with.
>

Where I live, Christchurch, New Zealand, the schools seem to be going
Apple. When you ask why, the decision makers say it is cost. Subsidies
have to be a factor in the early childhood programming. When the schools
have Mac Servers, and good IT people, it isn't a huge deal because scripts
can push a ppd and more; Papercut adds even more features to work with
built in free solutions.

I still prefer windows for point and print.

My personal opinion is that no one in Apple Management ever set up
printing to a colour MFD, or it would be more polished.
Presets for everything? CUPS in a hidden place!? How many hoops? Oh yeah,
now a console window to enable cups, come on...
GRR.

GofBorg
11-Jul-2013, 18:18
> My personal opinion is that no one in Apple Management ever set up
> printing to a colour MFD, or it would be more polished.
> Presets for everything? CUPS in a hidden place!? How many hoops? Oh
> yeah, now a console window to enable cups, come on...
> GRR.

Yah, I never understood that either.

lhaig
16-Jul-2013, 18:14
On 11/07/2013 12:34, Dave Taylor wrote:
> GofBorg <GofBorg@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote in news:WwWCt.1010
> $t31.652@kozak.provo.novell.com:
>
>>
>> Yep. I've done that as well. Problems arise when a 'knowledgeable' person
>> comes in and says, "That ain't Word!".
>>
>
> Those people get added to the beta tester pool for patch release candidates
> :)
>


The system works well for me.

Lance