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grokski
11-Jun-2014, 11:54
I seem to struggle to find a more appropriate place to post this so hopefully someone can either correct me or forward this where it should go.

I work with approximately 4000 SLE-licensed systems and in the light of recent developments around systemd, am very concerned about our future relationship with SLE products.

It is unknown to me whether SLE 12 will be exclusively systemd-based or if SysV Init will remain a viable option but the uncertainty is making us nervous.

The laundry list of issues around systemd is too long to quote here but I hope SUSE hears this loud and clear:

If SysV Init is not available in SLE 12 and, more importantly, remains usable (we can autoyast to it and continue using it), we will be migrating away from all commercial SUSE products before SLE 11 support runs out.

No ifs, no buts, no amount of convincing about supposed virtues of systemd can change this. Not happening.

I really hope that someone in SUSE reads this.

Best regards,
JZ, a concerned sysadmin.

ab
11-Jun-2014, 12:57
On 06/11/2014 05:04 AM, grokski wrote:
>
> I seem to struggle to find a more appropriate place to post this so
> hopefully someone can either correct me or forward this where it should
> go.

Have you talked to your SUSE salesperson about this? They can likely tell
you more about SLE 12 and it options than we can. If you're part of the
beta then that would be an even better way to ask about the option of
sticking with sysv-init options.

> I work with approximately 4000 SLE-licensed systems and in the light of
> recent developments around systemd, am very concerned about our future
> relationship with SLE products.
>
> It is unknown to me whether SLE 12 will be exclusively systemd-based or
> if SysV Init will remain a viable option but the uncertainty is making
> us nervous.
>
> The laundry list of issues around systemd is too long to quote here but
> I hope SUSE hears this loud and clear:

Does this laundry list apply to SLE 12 systems, or are they possible
issues that are only seen by other distros but do not apply here?

> If SysV Init is not available in SLE 12 and, more importantly, remains
> usable (we can autoyast to it and continue using it), we will be
> migrating away from all commercial SUSE products before SLE 11 support
> runs out.
>
> No ifs, no buts, no amount of convincing about supposed virtues of
> systemd can change this. Not happening.

That'd be a huge move for sure, and if that's the line in the sand then so
be it. Still, posting specific concerns as part of the beta, or to a
sales person, or even to the SUSE forums to see if the aforementioned
laundry list applies to you would be interesting to hear about. Since
systemd has been used for openSUSE 13.x for a while now I have not
heard/read many issues there, other than getting used to using the new
commands instead of the old ones. Chances are good that users there
aren't running thousands of systems as you are, so perhaps it's a scaling
issue, or integration with software to help manage systems on that scale.

> I really hope that someone in SUSE reads this.

The forums are not officially monitored (with one exception which does not
apply to this situation). If you want to voice your concern you should
use official channels (beta/sales/etc.).

--
Good luck.

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ab
11-Jun-2014, 13:19
Just a bit of follow-up:

Looking over at Wikipedia to find what kind of availability you have to
use distros that aren't using systemd, it looks like Slackware is your
next distro unless you decide to roll your own or go with somebody fairly
unknown:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd

To quote that page:

Arch Linux
CoreOS
Debian GNU/Linux (chosen for next release and availale for a couple years now)
Fedora
Frugalware Linux
Gentoo Linux
Mageia
openSUSE
Red Hat Enterprise Linux
Sabayon Linux
Ubuntu (planned to be default, following Debian it seems)
Ångström

Originally I thought Gentoo may be your best alternative, but their
default is also systemd at this point. They or Slackware are good
distros, or were the last time I used them for my home machine, and I
would bet that despite the default you may still be able to get Gentoo
working with sysvinit. You'll be moving away from an RPM-based distro,
and an enterprise distro, and still using the less-used init system (not
the default... most people don't care and won't be going that same way
going forward, particularly in a distro like Gentoo which doesn't focus on
enterprises).

It may be worth noting that while systemd is apparently here for major
distros, there is syvini compatibility in place. For example, I do not
always use the systemctl command to modify services on my laptop because
I'm "old-school" and know the init.d scripts and SUSE-style RC shortcuts
too well to switch yet. If that is the area of concern, perhaps it will help.

Hope this helps...

--
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grokski
11-Jun-2014, 14:02
ab,

Your comments and advice are appreciated. Especially thanks for the pointers regarding where to take this further.

Systemd is completely outside the UNIX philosophy envelope that the line must be drawn.

Unfortunately, workarounds that work for home computers and machines that can receive tender loving care do not apply for sustainable, supportable, efficiency-driven enterprise environment.

Best regards,
JZ

ab
11-Jun-2014, 14:34
On 06/11/2014 07:04 AM, grokski wrote:
>
> Systemd is completely outside the UNIX philosophy envelope that the line
> must be drawn.

I think we're allowed to have philosophical discussions on technology
here, as long as we're not "supporting" technical stuff or venturing into
religions and politics, which obviously we are not. With that in mind,
care to share? I like hearing about principle-based decisions since I
think they are the best starting-point for decisions. Your previous post
mentioned a "laundry list of issues" so I assume those are all around the
philosophy of Unix causing the drawn line.

Just to know the practical impact of this philosophy, which other distros
are you considering? Worded another way, do you have any viable
alternatives or will you roll your own?

--
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ab
13-Jun-2014, 16:41
Either to prevent throwing out the servers in your environment (and their
hosted services), or just to give you time to create your own distro that
uses sysvinit, you may find the Long Term SP Support option useful so that
you can get fixes beyond the usual six-month window for a new SP:

https://www.suse.com/support/programs/long-term-service-pack-support.html

Perhaps you already have it... I remember hearing about the insanely-long
time range covered by this (insane to me anyway... this must be expensive
to maintain by SUSE, no matter how nice it is for customers using it) and
think it may be valuable to somebody in your situation (with 4k boxes) who
needs to maintain the current environment fully while evaluating what to
do in the future, whether that's staying with SLE or changing.

--
Good luck.

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